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What's Your Edge
INTERNETPOKERS: Poker Blog
It’s been a while since I’ve written a blog post. Poker hasn’t really picked up any for me, but I felt like I should keep writing in this blog and try my best to keep it alive in some way. Today I’m going to sell out a bit and write not about myself, but about online poker and recent events. My topic is vague enough that this post may wander through different topics, but it will be centered around Isildur and his recent appearance in high stakes online poker. It is largely a product of my curiosity, experience, and confusion, and I hope that some of these ideas might speak to some of you as well.
One of the reasons why I wanted to write something like this was because, as most of you know, we have just witnessed a monumental event in the history of online poker – the entrance of Isildur into our world of online poker. A number of other commentators have offered their insight on this event, and there’s no doubt that the commotion over him has rocked the world of high stakes online poker. I felt that given the huge amount of speculation, misinformation, and downright stupidity that has flooded twoplustwo and other forums, it wouldn’t hurt to give the less informed half of the poker world a more accurate glimpse of the high stakes poker world.
A Word of Warning
It’s important to understand that what Isildur has done (and how hot he has run) is truly amazing. It is also important to understand that almost every high stakes poker player who has insight into him or the dynamics that are occurring around him are all public figures. What I mean by that is that they either have some sort of a sponsorship or an otherwise monetary or emotional connection to their own reputation. This gives everyone two layers of incentives – the first incentive is to openly talk about him, since everybody else wants to know about Isildur and only a small group of people can actually say anything meaningful about him. The second incentive is to stay quiet – since Isildur is very much a player in the online poker world, nobody wants to say anything about him that could jeopardize or negatively affect their relationship with him as an opponent in a poker game. What I mean to say is that anybody who right now would speak about Isildur is going to speak discreetly. Nobody will be direct, and yet everyone acknowledges his enormity. He’s going to be the elephant in the room. You won’t hear any outright admissions of how good he is, who thinks who is better than who, or even who people think Isildur is. And that’s just the nature of the game. The social dynamics of online poker have changed in the last few years, and the reaction to Isildur has shown us some of that.
What I want you the reader to understand is that I will not say everything that I think about Isildur. Nobody will. Online poker is at its heart a secretive industry, but as obvious as that is, I want to say this outright because I hope it will give some of you the awareness to look more closely at the discourse of online poker. Not everything is as it seems, and the asymmetry of information is as real here as it is anywhere else.
The Story of Isildur
That being said, it’s very obvious that Isildur is an extremely good NLHU and HUPLO player. His grasp of handreading, leveling and betsizing is second to none. Nobody who has watched Isildur play from the rail has any idea what kind of a player he is except that he seems to be aggressive and overbets a lot, and of course that he wins – his betting patterns, his style of reasoning, and his depth of thought are aspects that can only be appreciated within an actual match and by a player of adequate skill – that’s the nature of online poker. Isildur is a very good player and with the results he’s had, it’s impossible to deny it. He has rocked the boat in a big way, which is best exemplified by Tom “Durrrr” Dwan and the match they played, which is at this point a legendary one in the history of online poker.
For those of you who don’t know, Isildur won more than 3 million USD from Durrrr, which adds up to well over 30 buyins won. I’m not sure exactly how many hands were played, but as far as I know it was over 30,000 hands. It was an epic match, and I mean that in the strongest sense of the word. Allow me to contextualize it a bit.
(Disclaimer: some of this may be inaccurate, I’m piecing this together from what I know with little to no extraneous research. But for the most part it’s true enough.)
Isildur first showed up on Full Tilt around 25/50 NLHE. I don’t know who the first person he played was, but I remember hearing about him from some 25/50 grinders who had played him or had seen him around. The word was that Isildur was the new semireg on the block. Supposedly, he was hyperaggro, barreled like a monkey, and was really easy to get to stick his stacks in. Of course there are some 25/50 regs for whom this description was not enough to play a non-clueless opponent, but a number of regs were thrilled to have a new reg willing to play a bunch of tables and donk off stacks. Among the first few to play him in extended matches were Jungleman and I Win Flips (Tcorbin16). From what I heard from both of them, they both thought that they had significant edges on Isildur, although Corbin actually lost a decent clip to him (in typical Corbin fashion).
Our Battle
About a week later I was sitting at tables without any action when Isildur showed up at one of my 25/50 NL tables. I was bored and willing to play anything, so when he offered to play 6 tables (although usually I max out at 4), I decided to take him up on his offer and play a serious NLHE HU match for the first time in a long while. As the match progressed, all of what I’d heard about him being hyperaggro and barrelly checked out, but as I watched the lines he took to bluff, valuebet, and the way he reacted to my betting patterns, he seemed uncannily perceptive. Nevertheless, within the first hour or so I had won about 30k and was feeling pretty confident. He sat out on all of the tables and I assumed that the match was over and was about to check out. But about a minute later he said “brb,” and so I decided to wait for him and continue the match.
From that point, I started losing. Bad. There weren’t really any particular pots where I got badly outplayed, but before I knew it, due to beats coolers and him outmaneuvering me in a few spots, he was up 50k. 6-tabling 25/50 that’s not an unheard of swing to one opponent, so I asked him if he wanted to take it up to 50/100NL. He agreed, and we played a very short session there where I just repeatedly ran into the nuts – I thought I played well, but somehow he always had the best hand, despite his aggressiveness and how many big pots he was getting into. After losing 5 buyins at 50/100 I decided I’d had enough, and wasn’t feeling that great about my NL game and didn’t feel any point in going forward when he had all of the momentum and seemed to know my game pretty well. I told him GG and quit all of the tables.
Ten minutes later, he sat with me at 100/200 PLO, telling me he was bored and just wanted some action. I consulted my friend who told me that he had played Isildur and had crushed him – Isildur is clueless, he said. So I shrugged my shoulders and went with it – I have a lot of confidence in my PLO game, and I know that there are only a few people in the world who can come out on top against me there. If he’s as degenerate as he seems, it’s possible that I have a huge edge and that he just dumps it back. So I played.
PLO is quite different from NL because it’s much more transparent, not just to observers but also to the players themselves. When hands get in or big pots are played, it’s often a lot easier to dissect ranges, understand decisions, and evaluate EV than it is in NL. What that means that, for both observers and for the players themselves, it’s a lot easier to see who’s running bad and who’s getting outplayed in PLO compared to NL. Well, I ended up losing about 400k to him at PLO, and according to HEM I ran 300k below EV. We played probably 1000 hands or less of PLO. It was a bloodbath, but not quite a slaughter, since the poker gods were doing a lot more of the work than he was, which will happen in PLO. At the time I was pretty devastated, but after having reviewed the match carefully, I am sure that I ran bad. I’m not sure that I had an edge, but I am sure that my expectation was nowhere near what I lost, or even a quarter of that. But to all of you, I was only the beginning of the story of Isildur.
The Rise of Isildur
After I lost to him I took a break from playing, but there was a lot of chatter on NVG and among other high stakes players about this Isildur fellow. Since I’m a fish, most weren’t phased by seeing me lose so much to him, and wanted to try their hand. The next up to bat was Ugotabanana, an 18 year old PLO extraordinaire. He’s well known for being an enormous lucksack (I love you Harry), but even he could not overcome the Promethean run-good of Isildur. He lost 250k over 5000 hands of 100/200 PLO. Again, not a lot for the stakes played and variance, but at this point Isildur’s run was starting to border on the horizon of statistical significance.
Over the next few days I wasn’t watching as closely, but apparently he undertook matches with Cole South, Brian Hastings, and Brian Townsend in both PLO and NL. The matches were very back and forth and were grabbing the attention of a lot of railbirds and high stakes players alike. Generally when top class players like Cole and Townsend are swooping in to play a bunch of tables with a new player, the new player ends up going bust pretty quick, but despite tripping up every now and then, Isildur seemed to be holding his ground. They were playing as high as 200/400 and 300/600; stacks were being thrown around and leads were sometimes taken, but never held onto. Nobody doubted that Isildur was losing, it was only a matter of when. He seemed to be solid and certainly not easy to beat, but against the titans of online poker, nobody gave him a chance.
It was after a couple of days of battling against these players, Isildur being up a decent but by no means decisive amount on his opponents, that Durrrr entered into the fray. Right off the bat they agreed to 6-table HU at 300/600NL, and it was at that point that all eyes turned to what was inevitably going to be one of the most memorable matches in the history of online poker. Despite being overshadowed by the televised WSOP main event, tens of thousands of online poker players and poker aficionados logged onto Full Tilt to observe these games. The 300/600 didn’t last long, after a short while of playing and being down a few buyins Durrrr asked Isildur to take it to 500/1000 and Isildur happily agreed. What followed then was one of the most aggressive, volatile, intense heads up matches ever played. I will do my best to resist characterizing the dynamics or what specifically occurred in the match, but I think it was best described by a phrase I used at the time – “an unstoppable force meets an immovable object,” the former being Isildur and the latter being Durrrr. It was one of those rare heads up matches that exemplifies at once both art and spectacle. Railbirds couldn’t get enough.
After the first day with a ton of back and forth and a lot of action, Isildur ended up around +1.5M. Despite having played for a very long session with few breaks, few observers thought that this win was conclusive, despite being over 15 buyins in winnings for Isildur. Before Durrrr finally quit the session he and Isildur made an agreement to play again the next day, and so when night fell again (in the USA), the match continued.
That session was the most significant. Despite Durrrr’s shenanigans and suckouts, it seemed as though he was finally starting to reveal his strength. His style had changed and the tables were turning, the unstoppable momentum of Isildur seemed to have been shattered. At one point Durrrr was within 350k of even, and in that moment many of us who had been disheartened from Durrrr’s loss felt a feeling of relief. This was a moment of comfort in the world of high stakes poker. When I read that Durrrr was almost even, I thought to myself “well, I suppose that’s that. This guy’s run is finally over.” But when I was resigning to my bed, the rest of the online poker world was glued to its monitors. For Isildur, the night was far from over.
What happened next no one at all expected, not even those who were rooting for Isildur. With Durrr having steamrolled back, Isildur, who people were before calling the masked marauder of high stakes poker, seemed to be back to his previous title of a luckbox shot-taking degen. And yet, slowly but surely, Isildur started winning his money back. He won a couple of big pots as soon as Durrrr hit his peak, and from that point Durrrr seemed to not have a chance to protest or get even a word in. The tides had turned, the poker gods had spoken, and Isildur once again seemed to not be able to lose an all-in, winning and winning, and when the score came back to +1.5M for Isildur – he kept going, winning more and more, as if not to leave any doubt in Durrrr’s or anybody else’s mind that his win was no fluke. After that night he was up over 2M, and by the time of my writing this and a couple more sessions later, Isildur is up well over 3M on Durrrr. Since then, he has battled again with Cole and Townsend and stood his ground, and has massacred both Patrik Antonius and David Benyamine. He is now up well over 5M on Full Tilt poker, and is currently fourth on the all time leaderboard on HSDB behind Phil Ivey, Phil Galfond, and Patrik Antonius. He has cemented his name in the annals of online poker as one of the strongest players of all time.
It has been only two weeks since Isildur started playing high stakes on Full Tilt Poker. We truly have witnessed something incredible. But what we – the online poker community – and have not done, is interpreted this event. Made sense of it. Decided what it means. Not just for Durrrr, for Isildur, for high stakes players, or even for railbirds. What does this event mean for online poker? I haven’t the insight to speak for others, but I think that for me, Isildur’s upheaval of the online poker world has caused me to realize and question some things.
The European Hierarchy
It’s important to realize that the online poker world is split into a number of different worlds. Our world is what I will call the Western poker world (the word is poorly chosen but it works well enough). It includes 2p2, Cardplayer, Tableratings, and extends to the major American poker sites – Stars, Full Tilt, and Ultimatebet. The other major world is the Euro poker world, which includes sites like Ipoker, Prima, Party, Betfair, Svenka Spel, and some other sites that are only open to various European players (I don’t know enough about this poker world to mention any other specific sites, forums, etc.). These poker worlds are generally pretty strongly segregated – most of the top players in the Western poker world only play on Western sites, either because they’re American or because the nosebleed action on FTP/Stars runs more regularly. And in the same way, most of the top players in the Euro poker world only play on Eurosites and make most of their money there. But in each poker world there has been established a pecking order – a hierarchy.
From years of poker pros playing each other in different combinations and matchups, people have figured out who is better than who. Over the long run there is not much fluctuation in these hierarchies, as the better players continue to get better and don’t let players lower in the food chain catch up. It is also generally acknowledged that the Western hierarchy is stronger than the Euro hierarchy – the games are tougher and more selective, there are fewer fish, and so the Western hierarchy has bred the best poker players in the world. The Western poker world is tougher, and for that, it is stronger. But Isildur has challenged that. Isildur is from the Euro poker world, and his blitzkrieg against the entire Western poker hierarchy is a direct challenge to this precept. Many Swedish and other European players cheer on the march of Isildur for precisely this reason – to them, Isildur represents their hierarchy taking back control of the poker world. And so Isildur has become, to some, a symbol of the European hierarchy.
The Mythology of Online Poker
When I saw on that first day that Durrrr was playing Isildur and was down a lot, my feelings were mixed. I think that a lot of people in my situation would think “well, if Durrrr lost to him, then I guess that validates my loss,” and there was probably a dash of that emotion somewhere, but it certainly wasn’t decisive. As with everybody else on the sidelines, I had to decide who to root for. You can’t really stand outside a cage match and just hope it’s a good fight - no matter how objective you claim to be, somebody in the ring is representing you. If that’s not true, then you’re not watching with enough intensity. And if there ever were a poker game that could be considered a cage match, it would be this one.
A lot of people who aren’t initiated into the world of high stakes poker are quick to compare high stakes players to each other, but the world of high stakes poker is more rigidly divided than it might seem. Durrrr exists in an echelon of online poker that I haven’t reached, and probably never will. He plays for amounts of money that, even if I had the bankroll, probably wouldn’t be playing. Not only that, but his courage – and degeneracy – are miles above what I could handle. He is truly in another league, and so in a way he is just as distant to me as he is to any of you. Not only that, but I don’t really know Tom, although I know some people who do and I’m sure he’s a good person. But I have no personal reason to root for him.
And while this is all true, there was something in me that I couldn’t quite explain that was rooting for Durrrr. Well, more than that. I think there was something inside me that deeply needed Durrrr to win. At first I didn’t really bother to think about it, and maybe I accepted the easy explanation that I just wanted to see Isildur lose. But as the scale of the match grew larger and larger, and the impact of Isildur grew greater and greater, I began to realize that Durrrr represented something else to me in this match. He represented more than just a vicarious avenger. In fact, he was more than just Tom Dwan, more than just a single poker player, who one can choose to like or dislike. Durrrr represents something else, something much larger.
To me, Durrrr represents my generation. He represents my hierarchy. He represents the entire empire of the Western poker world. He is the king, and upon his head rests the crown of Western poker. That crown is more than just a piece of jewelry – it is a justification. He wears the crown upon his head because he is the proof that the Western poker world is great. It is proof that we are wise, that we are powerful, and that we are right to think that we are the best in the world. Durrrr holds all of this upon his head. We have imbued it in him. If nobody else in the world can beat Isildur, and if Isildur fights his way to the throne of our poker world, we know that Durrrr will be waiting for him. Durrrr is our last word. He is our proof that ourpoker works, that our poker is powerful, and that we were right to think that our poker is the epitome of all poker.
But, to me, Durrrr represents even more than that. Because you have to realize that this significance that I just mentioned is not granted to Durrrr because he is Durrrr – it is granted to him because of how much he’s won, because of who he’s beaten, and because of the respect and fear that he has garnered. But somebody else could just as easily have been in his place, someone else who might have had the same winnings and accomplishments. There’s something significant because of who Durrrr is and what he’s about that makes him an especially important symbol.
Durrrr can be dumb. Sometimes he makes mistakes, he tilts, he makes clearly –EV calls and he sticks huge stacks in with rags against the nuts over and over again. Durrrr is often reckless, sometimes emotional, and even at times irrational. Durrrr is fallible. He is imperfect. And yet, somehow he wins. He outplays, he outmaneuvers, and outthinks. He reached the top. He beat everyone. He became the king. He symbolizes the human in all of us, and he bears testament that one does not need to be perfect, unphaseable, untiltable in order to become great. The juggernauts of online poker can sometimes seem to possess an otherworldly stoicism and mental composure. Durrrr is certainly a titan, but his edges are jagged, just as the rest of us. That’s what Durrrr symbolizes to me. I too am sometimes dumb, sometimes I make tilty calls and chase losses. Durrrr is my validation.
To me then, Isildur represents something totally alien. He represents the nameless feeling that we all know when we play somebody who we feel that we just cannot beat. The pre-rational feeling that no matter what we do we cannot win; this force (it does not congeal into a person) will push us down and there is no way to fight back, to go up for air – our only option is to surrender. No matter what cards we are dealt or what flop we see, somehow we end up losing or getting outplayed. To a poker player, there is no feeling as terrifying as losing and not knowing why. When Isildur appeared, nobody knew who he was. Nobody knew why he played the way he did, how he was so good, or why he won so much. He surprised everyone, and in a whirlwind he destroyed almost everybody he played. He was a faceless force who suddenly disrupted all of the sensible hierarchy of the Western poker world. Whether or not we acknowledge it, everybody became afraid. Afraid that maybe he would tear everything down. That all of our hierarchies would be rendered irrelevant. Maybe he was the greatest poker player in the world. But to claim that title, he must answer to the king. To me, that is the symbolism behind the battle between Durrrr and Isildur.
But my perspective is not the only one, and I will not pretend that my interpretation is any more valid than anyone else’s. For some railbirds who have a more disinterested relationship to the poker hierarchy, many probably are enthralled by the march of Isildur because of all of the action and excitement that he stirs up, and I certainly cannot deny that if making things interesting is the only criterion, Isildur takes the cake. Yet others choose to root against Durrrr because to them Durrrr represents the old order, and Isildur, a newcomer overthrowing an empire, empowers some them in relation to the poker hierarchy. Maybe others dislike Durrrr because they think he represents an older and more fortunate generation of poker players, or maybe others see him as everything wrong with the culture of internet poker players. And a great many others root against Durrrr because they support Europe over America. The battle between Durrrr and Isildur means many different things to many observers, which is part of the reason why the match has been followed and commented on so passionately.
The Aftermath
Ultimately, as I’m sure you all know, Durrrr lost. Their battle was grand, awesome, and decisive. Isildur triumphed. Now, as the chroniclers of our age of online poker, it is up to us to interpret what that means. There is a lot that I could say about the nature of variance, the significance of leaderboards and results, and the poverty of information – these are issues that we are all grappling with as both students of this world, and as members of it. What did it really mean that Durrrr was up so much money in online poker? That he had beaten so many people, and seemed to be as good as it was? Was it really ever that significant? Were we all fooled by the randomness? We have all seen the simulations where one or two arbitrary lines bound absurdly high above the lot – was Durrrr just an anomaly, his greatness a blip of chance? Or maybe his loss to Isildur was a fluke, the product of bad play, of overconfidence – maybe we have yet to see what Durrrr is really capable of.
There are many who think that Isildur is now the best HU NLHE player in the world. Part of what made Durrrr so powerful and feared was his image – not just his image within the context of an actual match, but merely the awareness that Durrrr did not to lose to anyone. It might seem like a secondary aspect of his game, but if you believe your opponent is someone awesome, someone who no one else can stand up to, it invests your opponent with a great deal of power. It was with this invincible image that Durrrr ruled high stakes NL, but Isildur has shattered that illusion. At this point, having bested almost everybody who stood up to him, Isildur has assumed an even more powerful image, which will make it even more difficult for someone to overthrow him. There are some who’d say that Isildur has proven himself as the new king of online poker.
Or perhaps it is Isildur who is the anomaly, and as fantastically as he entered this world, he will supernova when he leaves it. Since the time I began writing this article, Isildur has lost 2.5M to Patrik Antonius in PLO, cutting his winnings on FTP in half. The significance of this event is certainly smaller than Isildur’s prolonged battle with Durrrr, but nevertheless the tides are rolling in, and the poker gods are plotting their next spectacle. Is this heralding the fall of Isildur, or is this merely the beginning of another battle? The world of online poker is shifting rapidly and much has yet to be seen. I cannot answer any of the questions I have posed, but I hope that you will all consider them as you continue to observe the path that the world of online poker takes from here.
Durrrr and Isildur.
Goddamn, were they meant for each other.
Until next time,
Haseeb, aka Dogishead
Nov 17, 09 14:51:30
your blogs and the way your write them are really enjoyable. fun read
Nov 17, 09 15:30:55
I love your interpretation of this hu match between durrr and Isildur1. It was def historical for online poker.
Personally, I was rooting for durrr to win. Then I started to root for sildur1 because this guy would play everyone. As a railbird, it's fun to watch high stakes poker online.
In the end, I do want to see durrr win though because I'm American. Poker is our game and we are the best at it.
Nov 17, 09 16:07:46
he will go broke obviously. he's riding high on tons of confidence and momentum. i remember one time last year on cakepoker i had 4k on there and had been playing 1/2. suddenly i decided to play 2/4 and quickly won 5k. i now had 9k online. then i sat in 5/10 NL. i was suddenly glued and addicted to the games. i was up 30k at 5/10 NL in 1 day. the rush was unbelievable. i could not quit. alls i could do was think about playuing more and more and higher. i played 10/20 heads up and quicvkly won 8k off a guy. i then sat in 25/50 with 40k online because the rush was so crazy and i was playing so good without even trying. well, my run ended there because i ran bad and ran out of money. well, ilsidur simply kept running good and propelled this same mindset into the millions he's got now. he will lose everything back, beleive me. poker aint no sprint, it's a marathon. have u ever sprinted a marathon? u fucking die. he's sprinting. he will die.
Nov 17, 09 16:47:03
So, you've never played euro games but you just assume they're softer? :o
If that's the case why there's a lot of euros playing highstakes on FTP when they have to pay taxes on FTP winnings and euro-sites would be tax free?
And why are two of FTPs biggest winners this year both scandis? (and isildur too)
Nov 17, 09 17:11:28
Nice post. I'm rooting for Isildur1. I hate bum hunters, which is what nosebleeds has come to with the dangs, galfonds, and others of the world. Durrr isn't a bum hunter, as you aren't either. However, there is excitement which is what the HSNL world needs. If the money goes to Isildur1, it may trickle down the system, whereas if it goes to Durrrr, odds are we never see it again.
Nov 17, 09 17:31:50
I think you're a bit wrong about the Western/European thingy, if you look at alltime money winners a good bunch of them is european, larzluzak(Once considered best nlhe player in the world?) Patrik Antonius obv, ziigmund, david benyamine(french lol!), kaiibuxxe/Niki jedlicka and probably some other names.
Ofc, if you look at the hs part 10/20 -> 50/100 very few would be european but that is pretty easy to conclude why, it's really not worth the problem of moving funds from euro sites and risking taxes if you play those stakes because you ain't really upping the amount of action moving to FTP at those stakes, you really have to go skyrocket high to up the amount of action you get.
And alot of ppl hate durrr because of the fact that galfond, and the dangs have kinda dragged him with them in the dirt because he is by ALOT of railbirds affiliated with bumhunting because of his friends and the relationship they have.
(Obv, scumming loads of do' from gus and guy have to to do with it... u know what i mean.)
Great blog btw, great read...There is alot of strong europlayers that have been trying to break isildur1 on euro sites for some time but what he does to them and did to durrrr is pretty much the same, dragging em to a game of variance and aggression he is simply better at IMO.
Nov 17, 09 17:34:03
Larz haven't won much tho, i forgot about his massive downswing and what it did to him regarding the nosebleed action participation.
And yea, i didnt mean that he is better at handling variance i just mean he is really good at a high variance game, he is so freakin' beasty that he somehow takes the game in a way he wants it... except against PA yesterday when he played those NLHE games so friggin slow in comparison to PLO so he semitilted him right of the bat there.
Nov 17, 09 17:34:29
great post, excellent writing style too.
I agree fully on the fact that there are 2 poker worlds. The top Euros are truly very very good, and given more time it will become obvious to most people that they are actually better than the top American pros.
I play on euro sites so this is why I root for isildur1
Nov 17, 09 17:37:57
All I know is there are a lot of top swede's focus almost fully on GTO play and dont care about gameflow, a style that will be very hard to beat.
I dont know if isildur1 is one of these guys but it wouldnt surprise me.
Nov 17, 09 18:04:21
i had the exact same feelings as you about the durrrr v. isildur battle but could never write it so well in a million years, best blog post ever
Nov 17, 09 19:29:45
Excellent.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You put a lot of effort into writing your blog well. I appreciate that.
Nov 17, 09 22:01:36
Is this a joke? Durrr is supposed to be the example of our "King"...lol. He obv. a good player
but waaaaaaaaay overstated here. I realize that highstakesdb is not completely accurate but in 08 it show his + almost 6mill and now for 09 he down 6mill. So in an entire 2 years he hasnt made shit (under his name) ...and he's the King?? How about Patrick Ant. + around 11mill over 2 years or IVY?...
Nov 17, 09 22:17:12
great read!
thanks!
hopefully cts can dig himself out of his current hole to the faceless challenger
Nov 17, 09 22:32:26
awesome post. i really felt oddly interested in the match beyond what i anticipated and also found myself rooting for durrr for many of the reasons you stated. poker has a lot of levels.
as far as the match is concerned, i think it was a lot closer than results indicated. isildur was a total unknown - everyone knows durrr and has had ample time to study his play. early edge clearly goes to isildur. kudos to him for taking advantage and making it stick, and then holding off the comeback at those stakes. but given how aggro these guys play in hu matches and the variance those styles of play would generate i don't think 30k hands is even remotely enough hands to determine who the better player is. even if one or the other had a very slight edge, there would be 30 bi swings up and down on a regular basis. whoever is running better, not just in all ins, but in coolers, hitting good bluff cards, semibluffing and lucksacking rivers, etc, will be the one taking the lead.
Nov 17, 09 23:44:15
One thing that hasn't been meantioned is, what the rise of Isldur1 means is that there will be others to follow. The lansdcape is constantly changing...
Nov 18, 09 00:38:02
gambler2k4 no offense 2 u, but u cant compare your run to isildurs, im sure hes at the top because hes good not just running good
Nov 18, 09 00:43:39
very nice read although i do think ur being a bit overdramatic about it all lol
Nov 18, 09 02:13:06
i will play high stakes one day soon, and i should thank this blog for the encouragement
haseeb you killed it
cheers bro
Nov 18, 09 02:45:52
Too early to say anything about how good the guy is. And yes, the post is a bit over dramatic.
Nov 18, 09 03:29:35
Still think he needs to have a match similar to this vs ivey. ivey's image is beyond that of durrr's. he just always seems to come out good in the end.
Nov 18, 09 04:16:53
until he beats these games regularly, we can't really surmise much. I remember Dustin Dirksen was crushing the NL games for a while too, and everyone was talking about him......
haven't heard from him in a while have we??
Nov 18, 09 05:44:39
I loved the blog until you started about the western/euro stuff. In the history books I read, Europe is part of the western world. Seperating Europe from the western world is like starting the cold war again. I dont know why you are thinking this way, maybe it's inherent for Americans who always want to be creating wars and thinking themselves as the superior. Maybe it's something else.
You made me laugh when comparing Durrr to the older poker generation. The past months Durrr was "the new kid in town" who was teaching the old generation how to play. Now he gets beaten hard, and all of a sudden he is the old generation. Does not compute IMO.
But of course I'm just a low stakes grinder, so not my stakes.
Just a quick laugh as before ending: You wanna know why Euro players play with without fear? The \$\$ comes so cheap! :D
Nov 18, 09 09:06:51
I actually read all of that, and I'm even late to go do something else. Well written, good sir!
Edit: The part about USA/Europe was a bit stupid, though. :I
Nov 18, 09 09:16:28
absolutly an EPIC post.. great read and really entertaining!!
you should write scripts man
Nov 18, 09 11:58:37
thanks - great read especially coming from some one who was on the wrong side of the isildur rampage. I wish you the best of luck in your comeback sir.
Nov 18, 09 12:22:05
I don't know what these haters are talking about. The part about Euro/US and the players' symbolic roles spoke very deeply to my thoughts on the matter.
Nov 18, 09 12:52:25
I think people hugely underestimate the variance of such matches. There's a good chance one of the players stands to make \$3000 an hour (or less) plus/minus a random swing of \$300K (or more).
Run some simulations of 50 hours of such a match and revel in the variance. No really, do it. It's pretty sick.
Nov 18, 09 15:04:40
Ivey is still king in my book. Until he crushes ivey for 5 million + he still has something to prove. Im sure durrrr has not said his final word yet. SAme goes for Cole and Antonius.
I watched for about 2 hours last night and its obv that he over bluffs a bit 2 much. Ivey picked him off with a pair of sevens for a 400k pot with a gross overbet on the river but Isal.
I also saw cole pick him off also. I think what is so diffrent about him is that he calls ATC out of popo, he fires a lot of flops and floats a lot out of popo. Kinda plays against "the standard" way.
Anyway, when antonius started a NLHU match last night, Isil asked him if he wanted to play 4 tables. Patrick did not respond.
Im not sure if he was goin to close a few of his other HU if patrick would of accepted. Isal was already play 6 HU at the time of the request.
SICK stuff
Great entry, very well written.
Nov 18, 09 15:14:56
Your posts aren`t blogposts, they`re more like world class philosophical articles...
Nov 18, 09 16:21:57
Should Patrick be considered part of European or Western-FTP team?
Nov 19, 09 01:27:46
probably one of the best poker-related things I have ever read. Nice job, and thanks.
Poopy
Nov 19, 09 01:27:58
probably one of the best poker-related things I have ever read. Nice job, and thanks.
Poopy
Nov 19, 09 07:41:51
This is a great post, but I find it interesting that you managed to write so much about the online poker hierarchy without mentioning the word "Ivey". Isildur has definitely shaken up the high stakes world, but I don't think you can say that the established order has fallen while Ivey remains intact.
To me, Ivey and Dwan are both looked up to as the king(s) of online poker. They give online players a sense of security. Even if someone comes and goes on a crazy heater against other high stakes regs, people say "oh yeah? just wait til he plays Ivey or Dwan!"
What is the difference between Dwan and Ivey? I think Dwan gets talked about more online because he is younger and better represents our generation of internet players, and I think you're right about his imperfection making him easier to relate to. On the other hand, Ivey is almost viewed as a machine, taking people apart with mechanical precision. He doesn't represent the "average" young high stakes grinder, but that doesn't make him any less of a force to be reckoned with. The throne of online poker is shared equally between Dwan and Ivey imo...
On another note, I think you're right about the aura of invulnerability thing. In many cases, it only takes one person to take down the "champion" and then a lot of people will come out of the woodwork and start beating him because that psychological barrier has been broken. For people who follow tennis, I bring up the example of Roger Federer. Once his aura of invulnerabilty was shattered by Nadal, lots of the other top 10 players started beating him too.
Nov 19, 09 08:35:35
fantastic read.
What i dont get is the Western/Eastern, America/Europe thing. Im from Europe and i was routing for durrrr, because i think hes a really good person and the best HUNL player in the world.
Why would you root for a poker player based on which country he is, i mean its poker not soccer or so. For me it would make more sense if i were you to root for Isildur because then there is a better chance that I could become the best "West" player one time.
Also you said that you wouldnt play as high as durrrr even if you had the bankroll, that was really leaving me speechless.
Maybee i just dont understand the american mentality. In Europe its more like when you start a game keep on fighting till u are the best at what u do and if u fail u go broke, so what.
Dont get me wrong im a nit as well, using bankroll management and so on, but how can u motivate urself and keep on grinding if theres no goal anymore?
greetz kohi
Nov 19, 09 19:28:03
But isildur is actually new to PLO. His main game is NL and from what ive heard he has mostly played some tiltgames before joining FTP. Sick good post though!
Nov 19, 09 20:53:35
you should be a writer or spokesman for poker with a stirring, profound and honest article like this! keep up the good work. i basically agree with your viewpoint, and watch with excitement to see what happens next at this historical time for poker.
Nov 19, 09 23:29:45
Thank you very much for that indulgent, insightful, and remarkably well-written blog post.
Nov 20, 09 04:05:36
I might take action based on the odds Isildur1 a superuser
seems pretty obv now you say he was playing 25/50 LOL
*puts down haterade*
Nov 20, 09 07:27:34
Your final comment about Antonius turning the tides again is slightly wrong of course, as he is from the European heirarchy (if such a thing exists).
Nov 21, 09 13:08:42
Haseeb,
Your analysis and your writing is second to none. Very good indeed.
And it's 'Svenska Spel' :)
Nov 21, 09 15:08:10
Interesting,intellectual,imformative and inspirational.........best blog in the history of poker!
Nov 22, 09 14:46:50
what do you have to say not that isildur is only up 100k and antonius has all your money now? i dont think super users tilt off five million in a week. =)
Nov 23, 09 17:18:15
Wow!
While I don't necessarily agree with everything you said (i'm European, which probably explains why) what you write is a joy to read.
If or when you decide to retire from the game go write a novel, i'll be first in line for a signed copy!
Cheers and keep blogging.
Nov 25, 09 04:51:24
I was directed here from Tyler Cowen's blog. Wow Haseeb, you are moving up in the world.
Nov 27, 09 21:56:20
I loved reading this entry. IMO the king is Phil Ivey. Don't be so easy to give up the crown when Phil doesn't back down to anyone including billionaires.
Nov 27, 09 21:56:47
I loved reading this entry. IMO the king is Phil Ivey. Don't be so easy to give up the crown when Phil doesn't back down to anyone including billionaires.
Nov 27, 09 21:57:08
I loved reading this entry. IMO the king is Phil Ivey. Don't be so easy to give up the crown when Phil doesn't back down to anyone including billionaires.
Nov 27, 09 21:57:30
I loved reading this entry. IMO the king is Phil Ivey. Don't be so easy to give up the crown when Phil doesn't back down to anyone including billionaires.
Nov 27, 09 21:57:51
I loved reading this entry. IMO the king is Phil Ivey. Don't be so easy to give up the crown when Phil doesn't back down to anyone including billionaires.
Nov 30, 09 22:48:09
Absolutely absurd post. One of the most well-written and interesting pieces I have ever read.
Nov 30, 09 22:48:34
Absolutely absurd post. One of the most well-written and interesting pieces I have ever read.
Dec 3, 09 01:33:57
Well well well, it would seem like youre unstoppable bullshit DID meet a gullable audience, but why wouldnt it have. You yanks would believe a monkey could pull his head out his arse, if the banana it was eating, told you so.
The amount of total shite in this drivvle is hilarious. If it wasnt enough that you actually bought into the fact that this tit isildur was just on a heater from heaven, then you start shiting on about euro v america, are you totally fucking insane.
Anyway, i read this a couple of weeks ago and though SHIT SHIT SHIT. Talking shit. You may have well been anaylzing how perfectly Betty picked the winning numbers for the fucking lottery.
It was a heater, simple as, and now what. He has lost it all back...ooooooo fuckin surprise.
I wonder where isildur is right now, probably at the bottom of a lake, or maybe in the boot of a car at the bottom of canyon. Or maybe he's in your attic with a needle sticking our of his arm, who gives a fuck, he's in hiding probably never to show his ugly face again.
But where are you?? I know you couldnt give a fuck about your blog, but you MUST feel an awful lot of embarassment after the shite you wrote, which has all proven to be total fabrication in past week. I cant wait, cannot wait, to read your next piece of crap, cannot wait to read how you wriggle out of the piss that you wrote, but when it comes, and when you do write it, I'm going to print it off and wipe my arse with it.
hahahaahah you thought it was the second coming, but know your ass is getting a god ols bumming.
Dec 3, 09 01:34:31
Well well well, it would seem like youre unstoppable bullshit DID meet a gullable audience, but why wouldnt it have. You yanks would believe a monkey could pull his head out his arse, if the banana it was eating, told you so.
The amount of total shite in this drivvle is hilarious. If it wasnt enough that you actually bought into the fact that this tit isildur was just on a heater from heaven, then you start shiting on about euro v america, are you totally fucking insane.
Anyway, i read this a couple of weeks ago and though SHIT SHIT SHIT. Talking shit. You may have well been anaylzing how perfectly Betty picked the winning numbers for the fucking lottery.
It was a heater, simple as, and now what. He has lost it all back...ooooooo fuckin surprise.
I wonder where isildur is right now, probably at the bottom of a lake, or maybe in the boot of a car at the bottom of canyon. Or maybe he's in your attic with a needle sticking our of his arm, who gives a fuck, he's in hiding probably never to show his ugly face again.
But where are you?? I know you couldnt give a fuck about your blog, but you MUST feel an awful lot of embarassment after the shite you wrote, which has all proven to be total fabrication in past week. I cant wait, cannot wait, to read your next piece of crap, cannot wait to read how you wriggle out of the piss that you wrote, but when it comes, and when you do write it, I'm going to print it off and wipe my arse with it.
hahahaahah you thought it was the second coming, but know your ass is getting a god ols bumming.
Dec 3, 09 01:34:53
Well well well, it would seem like youre unstoppable bullshit DID meet a gullable audience, but why wouldnt it have. You yanks would believe a monkey could pull his head out his arse, if the banana it was eating, told you so.
The amount of total shite in this drivvle is hilarious. If it wasnt enough that you actually bought into the fact that this tit isildur was just on a heater from heaven, then you start shiting on about euro v america, are you totally fucking insane.
Anyway, i read this a couple of weeks ago and though SHIT SHIT SHIT. Talking shit. You may have well been anaylzing how perfectly Betty picked the winning numbers for the fucking lottery.
It was a heater, simple as, and now what. He has lost it all back...ooooooo fuckin surprise.
I wonder where isildur is right now, probably at the bottom of a lake, or maybe in the boot of a car at the bottom of canyon. Or maybe he's in your attic with a needle sticking our of his arm, who gives a fuck, he's in hiding probably never to show his ugly face again.
But where are you?? I know you couldnt give a fuck about your blog, but you MUST feel an awful lot of embarassment after the shite you wrote, which has all proven to be total fabrication in past week. I cant wait, cannot wait, to read your next piece of crap, cannot wait to read how you wriggle out of the piss that you wrote, but when it comes, and when you do write it, I'm going to print it off and wipe my arse with it.
hahahaahah you thought it was the second coming, but know your ass is getting a god ols bumming.
Dec 3, 09 01:35:24
Well well well, it would seem like youre unstoppable bullshit DID meet a gullable audience, but why wouldnt it have. You yanks would believe a monkey could pull his head out his arse, if the banana it was eating, told you so.
The amount of total shite in this drivvle is hilarious. If it wasnt enough that you actually bought into the fact that this tit isildur was just on a heater from heaven, then you start shiting on about euro v america, are you totally fucking insane.
Anyway, i read this a couple of weeks ago and though SHIT SHIT SHIT. Talking shit. You may have well been anaylzing how perfectly Betty picked the winning numbers for the fucking lottery.
It was a heater, simple as, and now what. He has lost it all back...ooooooo fuckin surprise.
I wonder where isildur is right now, probably at the bottom of a lake, or maybe in the boot of a car at the bottom of canyon. Or maybe he's in your attic with a needle sticking our of his arm, who gives a fuck, he's in hiding probably never to show his ugly face again.
But where are you?? I know you couldnt give a fuck about your blog, but you MUST feel an awful lot of embarassment after the shite you wrote, which has all proven to be total fabrication in past week. I cant wait, cannot wait, to read your next piece of crap, cannot wait to read how you wriggle out of the piss that you wrote, but when it comes, and when you do write it, I'm going to print it off and wipe my arse with it.
hahahaahah you thought it was the second coming, but know your ass is getting a god ols bumming.
Dec 13, 09 01:45:36
Hi man, I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading and thinking about your essay on the beauty of poker (blog titled I live in eliminable liminability or some shit like that). You are obviously very intelligent. You'll probably be back playing high stakes before you know it. Good luck!
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