CARDRUNNERS
What's Your Edge
tilllttt's Poker Blog
on my way back from mpls visiting friends and watching the superbowl. glad the saints won. had a great time.
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i feel like i'm finally starting to realize how completely insignificant each individual session is, especially individual hands. obviously learning from things that happen in hands and various sessions IS important, but getting upset about individual hands or sessions is silly and will only negatively impact your play.
i have noticed recently that i had no urge to check the cashier which is something new for me. it just seemed pointless since all I'm really interested in anyway is how i'm doing over the month. i've always known this to be true, but i feel like for whatever reason I just haven't been able to implement this in my game. i feel like i'm finally getting there. i think i realized this to be true when i recently had a couple of horrible sessions, then i would win it all back in 2 days, then another bad session, then won it back in one day. then i realized that if i hadn't tilt spewed a buy in or two when things were going poorly then these may have even been winning days instead of break even. point is to make the absolute best decision possible in every hand, irregardless of what happens on other tables in other hands. i am working so hard on mastering this, and i have no doubt that as i continue to master this i will continue to win.
the only other major leak i have is paying people off too light which i am already doing a better job of. good players can be bluffed, bad players can't.
anyway, after all these hands i am finally feeling like it's truly sinking in that i shouldn't concern myself with session results and beats are just rolling off my back. i believe i will be 100% better going forward if i continue to work on these extremely important concepts. time will tell.
Feb 2, 10 12:11:44
Huge progression in any players games. I envy you for that trait. Hopefully, I can develop this over time--as you have. Congrats and go crush.
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had a good month, but felt it could have been a lot better. i've been having some trouble adjusting to fish and have been calling too much in general. i got pretty tilted earlier today as well when i ran amazingly bad and eventually just lost control. it was crazy. had s stretch of like 30 minutes where everyone ran in god mode vs me. regrouped and pretty much won it all back, but could have been a winning day for sure.
i'm so mad because i barely missed ironman on ft this month. i was getting to the last 20 minutes of the night and realized i wasn't going to make it, so i fired up 4 rush tables and 12 normal tables. it was pretty funny. despite all this it was too late and i finished 25 stupid points shy. it just sucks to give away money when you're that close. i've been ironman for 18 months now so i get more medals for being iron. it's super easy to get now playing a bunch of tables lower or rush poker, so it's really inexcusable that i missed out.
had a great month though. made some money, but more importantly, played 56k hands over 85 hours. didn't quite reach my goal of 100 hours, but i think really getting into the grind and establishing a routine and schedule will really help. it's a lot of work, but my long term goals are all that matter and i need to step up the effort.
hope to hit 100 hours next month for sure. i think i can have an absolutely monster month if i just clean up a few things. for whatever reason, i've been too splashy lately. i think there is a tendency for this to happen when you play lots of hands in a month, but that's why it's even more important. all those bad calls or bad plays where i just KNEW better, that really adds up over 56k hands. i'm guessing in total my mistakes cost me at least 10 buy ins this month, but probably more. that's just way too much money to be careless with.
anyway, hopefully the coming months will be much much bigger than this one was. i'm pretty excited about my short term future in poker. working on a bunch of different things to maximize my profits. bankroll is a huge thing for me, and i'm finally getting to be in a pretty good spot in that regard. if i'm smart, i prepare, and i spend a little more time studying my plan and watching some vids then i think i'll have some great results.
Feb 1, 10 00:46:49
buy the extra iron man day from the medal store to keep that streak alive imo
congrats on the good month
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it's just been really really difficult getting back to 1/2. i just have to be patient i guess. i know eventually i'm bound to have a few decent sessions in a row. i mean, i'm not sitting at tables with 5 regs on them that's for sure. still playing a solid fundamental game trying to play pots with fish. hopefully things turn eventually.
Jan 28, 10 11:09:05
It never ceases to amaze me how the fish often manage to suck out, and when one moves up one almost always loses to start off with.
Jan 28, 10 15:33:11
hey, i'm glad fish suck out. if they didn't suck out they would never play the game. i wanted to tell him to go tell all his friends how easy poker is.
it was just annoying because i won six buys at 50nl earlier in the day and gave it all to him in one hand at 1/2.
keeping the site and sn private, but the 1/2 games there are softer than the 50nl on full tilt.
i think i'm going to have another go tonight. i'm determined to go on a heater at 1/2 and there's absolutely no reason I can't do it if i just play my game.
Jan 30, 10 11:17:19
Have you tried moving up but playing full ring? Since full ring is not as aggro as 6-max, moving to 1/2 and 2/4 has built confidence for me. It may do the same for you. Just a thought.
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now that rush has calmed down a bit and people have started playing more sane, my basic assessment is that it's still profitable, but not sure that it's more profitable than playing 6-9 tables at six max if you do any kind of table selecting. clearly your biggest edge playing poker is identifying weaker players and exploiting their mistakes. readless, you can still identify weaker players on rush, but you will never really have that good of a read on their postflop tendencies, so in general, you are playing against a pool of weaker players and it will lead to some higher variance situations.
i think the biggest advantage to playing rush is when you are 200bb+ deep. fish and even a lot of regs do not play well when they are deep, and when you are deep you have a lot more weapons in the arsenal to determine villian's hand strength via post flop play. for 100bb people can really splash around and just sort of go with draws or whatever. when you are deep there is far more skill and hand reading involved. also, fish and regs still overplay overpairs when you are deep, and because of the nature of the game being very aggressive no one ever believes you have a hand anyway, so you generally get paid off when you have a monster. i almost won a 1000bb pot the other day. i raise utg with jj and villian 3b out of sb. i call since i am 500bb deep and he has me covered. flop comes j97sss. villian cbets and i raise about 3x and villian calls. turn is red 2 and villian check calls a 80% psb. river is another jack and villian checks. i shove for about 75% pot and villian tanks and times out folding. it's not often that you pick up 200bb without showdown.
what is amazing to me is that villian even thought about calling river when he obviously had aa and beat nothing. no one wants to get bluffed when you have a big pair vs an unknown, so that's the only reason he considered calling. if you play well deep then that is the biggest edge you will have in these games.
im not saying the games aren't profitable at 100bb. i'm just saying your edge will be greater vs relative unknowns when you are deep as opposed to 100bb when you have no idea of how villian plays postflop. i thought i would eventually start being able to develop some reads on regs, and after playing 15k hands or so i'm pretty sure this will not be possible, because even if you developed some kind of read on a reg, absent any history at the table, your read is going to be more generalized anyway.
rakeback will be better, but variance will be higher and i think it's more stressful. maybe i just need to get better at it, but those are my initial impressions.
i think it's actually far more profitable to play 6-9 tables of normal six max where you can develop specific reads and utilize a hud. rush has actually helped me pay more attention to some smaller details which help me develop reads quicker when i'm just playing regular tables, so it has actually helped me improve some things a bit.
anyway, i'm having a great month despite playing a ton of hands at 50nl and am finally getting my rolls on each site i play to the level where i will feel more comfortable playing higher. it's funny because i think when i check my ego at the door before playing my results are always so much better. as soon as ego creeps into my game then i start making mistakes. i thought i would be ashamed to play 50nl, and nothing could be further from the truth. it allowed me to open up my game and really work on some leaks vs weaker competition. it also helped build confidence which is something i was struggling with after a long break even stretch. i'm really looking forward to getting back into some 1/2 games because it has been a while since i've done anything at that limit and i feel like i have something to prove to myself. i'm getting very close to my bankroll requirements and since i won't need to cash out for a while after getting my tax return i'm pretty sure my time is coming soon.
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I have none.....
i suck so hard at emotional control. it's by far my biggest leak, and it is a profound one. i could probably be playing 2/4 by now if this wasn't such a huge problem for me, but no matter how much i try to address it, i just can't get my arms around it and keep it that way.
anyone have any good ideas or techniques? seriously. i don't even really believe in all that meditation stuff, but i've seriously considered breathing techniques before and during a session. i get far too excited about big pots, whether i win or lose them.
it's so disappointing, because i work so hard to get good results and then in a momentary lapse in judgement i just tilt spew.
tilllttt is the perfect screen name for me because i suck at it.
no i didn't just have a bad session or anything. i'm finally having a pretty good month. rush poker has settled down, but it will still be a good way to make money. it's just frustrating because i would be up so much more in general if i could just keep my cool. regs play bad. villians suck out. it's good for the game. why do i let it upset me? just dumb dumb dumb.
it's so frustrating that i know the right thing to do, but just can't master it. i will never be an elite player if i'm unable to mitigate tilt from my game, so maybe, i will never be an elite player. time will tell. all i know is this. 100% of my study time, prep, and focus during sessions will be around controlling my emotions. in every aspect of my life, i am going to become a monk. in with the good air, out with the bad. as peten2toms says, "positivity FTW" baby! anything else is just -ev.
Jan 26, 10 18:29:10
Im currently reading the book the poker mindset. Its actually the first poker book i have read but it has refreshed my mentality into how to approach the game. It deals with more of the psychological part of the game. Will read Ace on the River as well which i purchased both on Stars using my FFPs.
Since reading the book ive had 3 consecutive winning sessions :) gl
Jan 27, 10 08:23:21
You know what, you'll never get to 2/4 until you conquer these issues. I used to be a bit of a tilt monkey but now I'd say that part of my game is really strong. I owe a lot of that to The Poker Mindset, as Zarolla said it's a great book.
You have to come to the realisation that the difference between you and a 2/4 grinder is probably quite small in terms of skill, and huge in terms of emotional control and mindset. Out of everything in Poker you can only control yourself, everything else is down to chance and probability. Don't focus on the past, focus on the present. The hand you are playing right now, don't let anything else influence your decision but logic and the information you have available to you at that time.
Once you start to crack it you'll get a great feeling when you lose a few big pots and remain cool and collected. I can tell you that for me, having a big losing session and feeling fine about it is a much better feeling than winning a huge pot.
Whenever I watch the top player's videos, it's obvious why they are so good. They're thoughts aren't clouded by the bad beat they just took, or some random hand that they played wrong. They are 100% focused on the individual hand they are playing at that time and nothing else matters. I think sometimes we forget that each hand is separate from the next, they don't somehow merge and form one big hand, they are all individual, like stepping stones across a huge lake. If you stumble and fall in the water you have to get back up there and regain your balance, not get mad and start to frantically try and rush your way to the other side.
It's such a cliche but the only thing stopping you from achieving your goals is yourself.
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just got done logging my first 5k hand day playing rush poker. it was absolutely INSANE! it's unlike anything ive ever experienced in poker. i think im hooked too. it's so weird. when i first started playing it i was just laughing because it was just so ridiculously aggro. im only playing 50nl until i get used to it, but holy shit it is seriously a rush when you are playing. the preflop aggression is just crazy right now. i'm not sure if it's because a lot of players that normally play higher are now mixed in the game, but between the higher limit players and the bad ssnl that overcompensate it makes for some fricking wild situations.
of course i lose a 600bb pot when i got in top set vs huge draw on flop:
http://weaktight.com/1920827
here is just a taste of the monkey aggression that is going on:
http://weaktight.com/1920830
http://weaktight.com/1920831
http://weaktight.com/1920832
http://weaktight.com/1920835
i mean, it can be really tough, especially when you're working with some seriously deep stacks. i saw one guy tonight with a 1600 stack at 50nl. nothing like being 3200bb deep. i wouldn't even be surprised if someone had him covered.
the other thing that makes it challenging is that you typically have no idea how these players are playing at all. that gets tough when you're playing super deep and everyone is totally splashing it around. sure, i recognized a few names, and will probably get reads on players as i go along, but if the player pool is over 500 then a vast majority of your hands are going to be played against relative unknowns. even if you're playing against someone you know, you still have no idea how they are playing at the time. i'm sure there were times i was running 15/12 and others that i was 24/20. i just don't see how you can play real laggy though and make it work. the aggression, stacks and lack of reads would seem to make it really really tough to play laggy unless you were totally comfortable with a super high variance style. i mean, i started feeling like aq, and 88 were the nuts preflop.
the other thing that makes lagging it up difficult is that usually you use that image to your advantage in a normal game. well, that doesn't work here. they don't know you're capable of firing multiple barrels with air. in fact, i think that's what everyone assumes. no one ever believes you have a hand. bluffing is much much more difficult. just think about players natural tendencies when they sit at a table. the first time they get 3b then they think someone is making a move. or the first time they get 4b, or whatever. the aggression level is just off the charts preflop. i don't think i have ever been reraised so much in my life. that's why hands like a10, kq, 66, whatever might even be folds in early position given the dynamics of this game, stack sizes, etc. i mean, what do you do when you raise kq utg and get 3b when you are 300bb deep vs an unknown? and trust me, there is so much 3betting and squeezing going on you are very likely to encounter one or the other.
i have a feeling this is going to get to be even bigger. poker players are action monkeys, period. we thrive on it. playing rush poker will give you all the action you could ever want. you can play about 1200 hands/hour just 4 tabling. i played over 5k hands today which is the most i've ever played in one day. i think this game is really going to become a big thing in poker. there is just far too much interest in action and multitabling grinders. i think it's a revolutionary idea. it will be really interesting to see what kinds of adjustments are made as the game evolves. you would think it has to change as people adjust, but since most players are generally bad players anyway who make poor adjustments, i'm not so sure it will ever be that much different. time will tell.
all i know is that it was crazy, and if you haven't tried it you have to give it a shot.
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i'm really pleased with the fact that i'm getting the hours finally. i've already played more hours this month than i did all month last month. i have dropped limits though and have been practicing playing 9 tables. i played the first 1/2 of the month at no more than 4 tables and i just wasnt happy doing it. it was frustrating and was taking absolutely forever to get in hands. i don't believe i've done all i can to try to improve while playing more tables, so i decided to drop down in limits and take it more seriously to try to figure out something that really works. obviously i'm not going to play as effectively at 9 as i am at 4, and when i'm moving up in limits i will definitely stick to 4 initially, blah blah blah, but after watching nanonoko absolutely crush playing like 20 tables at 3/6 and higher over several hours, i was like, come on man. if he can do that at 3/6 then i should be able to play 9 at ssnl.
so far my project has been working out extremely well. i think i've also corrected some leaks in my game and really improved as a player in general. the plan is pretty simple. just get used to playing more tables and longer sessions at lower stakes until i get 100% comfortable with the flow and set up, then move up. right now my only table selection is full stacks, but as i move up i'll have to be better at this. it has been good to drop down if nothing else just to gain some confidence and i'd recommend it to anyone. i had 3 months where things were pretty stagnant for me, and letting go of that ego really helps.
if games are okay tonight then i'll probably give my new project a shot at 100nl. could it be a mistake playing more than 4? absolutely. but if i quit trying something just because it was hard then i'd never make any progress in poker or in life. so much of poker is making adjustments, and at ssnl even the regs are pretty bad, so there should be no reason i can't win as long as i'm playing focused and completely comfortable with whatever number of tables i feel like playing. it's far more important to play fewer tables as you get to 2/4+ just because there will be fewer fish and regs will be better. wish me luck.
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had an interesting hand come up recently that demonstrates several leaks of small stakes players.
here is the hand.
http://weaktight.com/1910563
now, initially looking at the hand i'm sure it looks like i'm a spewtard. but here is a little background. i have never played with villian and not been involved in any pots with him thus far, but i was playing like 8/6 or something ridiculous at this table and he was super lagging it up at like 36/24 or something with a 10+ 3b. so, when i 4b, i expect to get a lot of respect. villian flats the 4b pretty quickly, and flop is kq2cc. normally i'd just shut down here, but since my 4b was a little smaller i think villian's range is much wider, and when villians flat 4bets for 100bb then i instatag them as fish until proven otherwise. so i check flop and villian bets like 17 into 22 with 22 behind. i decide that i have plenty of equity vs his range and ship and he SNAP calls with second pair.
he then types in chat how he runs bad blah blah and i am just laughing because it was one of the best feelings to suck out vs such a horrible player. so often villians flat 4bets with aq or 99 or whatever and it works out for them and i seemingly never suck out. well i can't say that anymore!
anyway, back to the hand analysis. first of all, when villian gets 4b by a nitty player aq is a fold for 100bb. there really shouldn't even be any deliberation. i commented later in chat about his flatting 4b with aq, and his reply was that he wanted to rep aa/kk. lol. ok, first of all, when you're playing that retarded aggro, you're never going to get credit for aa/kk. second, if he was repping aa or kk, why would he bet second pair on the flop when checked to? there are two possibilities, he's either betting for value or turning his hand into a bluff.
if he's betting here for value with the intention of calling it off, does he really believe a player playing nitty is going to crai with qj or worse? when he bets 17 with only 22 behind, he's pretty much committing himself to the hand, so he can't really fold if he gets raised, but he's like never getting raised with worse, except here obviously, and i'll explain why. if villian is even a level 1 thinker, he'll check behind with middle pair in this situation, because a super nit's range for continuing here are aa, ak, kq, qq and kk. i'm pretty sure a nit would never bluff shove with almost no fold equity or with jj or worse. so betting really only folds out worse, and hands that you would want to protect from are like 2 outer type hands like jj or 1010, so you really aren't making a mistake by checking to let those hands catch up because you are so far ahead already, and betting almost certainly folds them out. it's just so extremely unlikely you'll get value from anything worse, which essentially means what? he's turning his hand into a bluff.
this is actually why i decided to shove. i obviously couldn't imagine villian betting this much with so little left behind qith aa, kk, qq, or kq, so when he bets that much it really looks like a bluff. you could argue that maybe that was his plan. to bet big to induce a bluff shove in a 4b pot......., no......... wait a sec, my head hurts even saying that.
nope, this player said after the hand that he wanted to rep aa or kk pre by flatting the four bet, but then he bets big with middle pair on a kq2 flop? makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. so he's trying to rep aa or top set by betting aq on a kq2 flop????
seriously, think about this. if he's repping top set or aa, what is he hoping to get called by? this can only mean that he was, in fact, bluffing (without knowing it), but snap called it off because he already had too much invested. basically, he didn't really know WHY he was betting. he just flopped a pair in a 4b pot and figured he had to bet when checked to. THAT'S why this player sucks at poker. it's certainly not running bad.
anyway, this is sometimes what happens when retards make stupid plays. my read was actually correct. he did not have a premium hand like aa, kk, qq or ak. his bet and size with aq in this spot made absolutely no sense, so i shoved for 100% value.
it's amazing to me how so many leaks can become so obvious by one hand.
bottom line is this, you need to be thinking about why you do what in every phase of every hand. are you betting for value? are you betting as a bluff? if for value, do you think they have a strong range or a weak range? adjust sizing accordingly. if as a bluff, can you successfully rep a strong hand? bluff what is necessary to win the pot vs villian's perceived range. sometimes you only have to bluff a nominal amount like a min raise in a 3b pot or whatever, and sometimes you have to overbet. just make sure you're thinking about what each decision in every hand is intended to accomplish. set up hands for your river play. make sure you have a plan for later streets anticipating anything villian may throw at you so you already have some idea of what you are going to do before you even have to make that decision.
don't be a regfish who just acts out of pure aggression without even understanding why. if you're struggling to win at ssnl then i'm pretty sure understanding these concepts is probably your biggest overall leak.
Jan 18, 10 13:36:44
so you think that youre getting 3-bet lightly playing 8/6? but b/c you are playing 8/6 you will get respect if you 4-bet? seems backwards, if he notices youre playing 8/6 enough to give you respect for a 4-bet then he's probably not 3-betting you lightly.
when you shove for 100% value w/ QJ what worse is calling you?
Jan 18, 10 13:45:33
do i think he's 3 betting light on the button regardless of my stats? yes. i shove for value because nothing he could have makes sense when making that bet size, so yes, i think he has air most of the time. if i think i'm good it's obv a shove. what should i do, just call? pot is already big enough so obv shoving is only play since he's shutting down with all his bluffs on river anyway with no remaining fold equity.
you're missing the entire point of the post. are you actually defending villian's play? i think i just threw up a little just thinking about this. sounds like you think villian played it correctly (please say no).
Jan 18, 10 13:53:11
no, i think you both played the hand horribly.
if he's calling w/ all better when you shove and not continuing w/ his air when called, how is call flop and fold turn if he bets not best? if better never folds and worse never calls can you really say shoving is the only option?
Jan 18, 10 14:36:33
wow, now it's hard for me to even take you seriously. you think calling 17 on flop and folding turn for 22 in a 78 dollar pot is best? you don't just call 17 with 22 behind in a pot that large. are you serious?<BR><BR>he could very easily have aj, a10 or any other random garbage that people flat 4bets with. i've seen people call 4bets with a7s a couple of times for 100bb. the point is his line makes zero sense, and when he shows up here with aq it only proves my point that villian is totally clueless pre and postflop.<BR><BR>if you were in my spot, do you think villian actually plays aa, ak, kk, qq, this way? i'm actually pretty sure villian snap shoves ak+ here given his image. do you think he flats 4b with aq and then value bets 17 with 22 behind with aq when villian 4 bets him? come on man..... if he's betting like this here with aq then i'm quite certain he's willing to do it with bluffs as well since that's essentially what his play amounts to.<BR><BR>like i said, plan was to 4b bluff and give up, but when he bets like that what hands does he really play that way? should have never included results because only good players can see the rationale behind the decisions without being results oriented.<BR><BR>honestly, this post is intended to help people like you out and illustrate how poor villian's decision making is because he obviously wasn't thinking correctly about his play pre or post flop. when you come in here and totally miss the point you're just taking away any value someone could get from the basic concept i'm trying to get across. you're no different than villian in this case.<BR><BR>i actually think my play is very good because aq is about the only hand i would expect villian to flat a 4b, but then for him to value bet 80% pot on a kq2 board makes no sense, so what hands can he really have if he was any kind of thinking player at all? when he shows up qith aq here i actually feel even better about my play because villian shows how truly nonthinking he is, and the only reason i did what i did was because his line was so horrible and didn't add up.
bottom line is villian just couldn't fold aq to a 4b and when he flopped a pair he decided he was best even though i had not 4bet him. i obviously did not expect villian to value bet aq here, and how could i? who plays that way? losing players, that's who.
Jan 18, 10 14:45:26
Gotta agree with goheels here. Villain played it really bad but your 4bet is likely pretty spewy if you're playing 8/6 and c/raising the flop just doesn't make much sense. If he really is shutting down with all his bluffs on later streets then c/call, c/fold is by far the best line. If you are worried about protecting your hand against air you should probably just cbet.
Jan 18, 10 14:56:44
i'm not sure exactly what point i'm missing. your point is that the villian played the hand horribly, i agree with this. i also think you played it horribly.
Jan 18, 10 14:57:55
hard for me to understand how the focus here is on my play vs mistakes villian made. honestly, my line is irrelevant. i don't even care about the hand. the whole point is to show that people need to think more about what they are doing and have a plan for the hand. don't just bet because you gots you a pair. do you understand?
Jan 18, 10 15:03:04
i dont like the c/call, c/fold line or the check/shove line. i think cbetting is probably best. tilllttt, what "air" do you think the villain will flat a fourbet with, i dont see many people flat fourbets with trash so i really think he has a little something pretty often here. I agree that the villains play was bad but I really think your line doesnt work well agaisnt a poor player
Jan 18, 10 15:03:40
if he's never bluffing the turn why would you call? you're clearly WAY behind his value range and i doubt you're getting the right price to draw to 5 outs max.
if he's bluffing that's a different story, but if that's the case then your flop play isnt good
Jan 18, 10 15:04:24
so james, are you advocating a call on the flop and fold turn for 22 into a 78 pot? are you advocating a fold on the flop? if my line sucks what is better? obv pretty easy now that you know villian's exact hand, but are you really just folding when villian bets like that on flop?
was i correct that villian essentially turned his hand into a bluff, or do you disagree with this? wasn't my read on villian's play exactly correct? didn't villian turn his hand into a bluff without realizing it?
Jan 18, 10 15:29:18
i'm just curious. What do you think his bet calling range is on the flop?
Jan 18, 10 15:34:23
dunno why people think the check-shove is bad. if villain is bad enough to bluff Qx here and call it off, he's bad enough to bluff A hi and call it off because he's "committed."
also, saying that a cbet is preferably to a check-shove is being results oriented. tilllttt wasn't certain villain was bluffing UNTIL villain bet the flop so strangely.
Jan 18, 10 15:43:14
when there there are only 22bbs left in a 178 bb pot, i'm just not too worried about his bet/calling range. i'm just fine if he folds ace rag and folds and i scoop the pot without having to sweat the river.
it's funny, i'm a cr member and just trying to help out some of the struggling ssnl players, and all anyone can talk about here is my line. a lot of people that according to table ratings couldn't really hold my jock.
if you want to talk about my line, fine. when villian flats a 4 bet pre by a nitty player with no history, and then bets near pot on flop when checked to, doesn't it look like he wants a fold? does anyone dispute that villian should not be value betting aq here? does anyone dispute that villian is turning his hand into a bluff given table dynamics?
does anyone dispute that if villian is essentially bluffing here that our play is to shove with only 22bb left?
i could not disagree with you more when you say to call 17 flop bet and fold 22 on river when villians play doesn't make sense to begin with.
Jan 18, 10 15:50:28
thank you nomadic. finally someone that knows what they are talking about. villian could be doing this with 99 for all i know given how he played this hand. also, cbetting would be horrendous. it would actually be pretty much the same as villian's play.
as nomadic said, i was pretty much done with the hand UNTIL villian bets that amount inexplicably. if he bets 1/2 pot or checks and then bets turn i just fold, because he's far more likely to play a real hand that way than how he played this one, and as i've tried to point out, villian turned his hand into a bluff whether he realized it or not. anyone that is really good at hand reading has had this happen to them. you make the correct decision based on a correct analysis of the hand, but villian botches the hand so badly that he's bluffing with the best hand.
Jan 18, 10 15:54:18
didnt he call \$22 to your c/shove? isnt that 44bb's?
am i reading this wrong?
Jan 18, 10 15:57:37
zino, you asked what i thought of his bet/calling range. if i decide to shove, he only has to call 22 bucks in a 78 dollar pot. i mixed up bb to 100nl. so, since it's 50nl you're right, it's 44bb into a 156 bb pot.
i seriously doubt villian is even folding 99 to a check shove, but there are other hands like aj and a10 that i will get value from, which is why shoving is optimal.
Jan 18, 10 16:24:53
tilllttt, i hope for your sake you keep yourself a little more calm and collected at the table then you have in this thread.
in my very first reply i asked you what worse calls your c/r. you never answered and immediately jumped on the defensive assuming (baselessly) that i thought he played well. you never said anything about him bet/calling w/ 99, AT, AJ , etc. if you think he bet/calls those then obv c/r gets better.
in the 2nd post i made i asked you 2 simple questions and, again, you lost your mind saying you cant take me seriously. i was not saying i thought anything was good or bad (except preflop which i think is horrible). i was simply asking a question.
Jan 18, 10 16:27:02
tilttt, you're comments about the villain are actually pretty spot on. he had no idea what he was doing. that being said, just fold pf or avoid these dumb spots. why are you at 50nl? and if you think he's full of air always just c/c c/c, why c/shove? only ace high that's calling cuz he's commited is A10 or some random AXcc
Jan 18, 10 16:58:50
sorry heels, i assumed from your post that you were asking a rhetorical question. in your second post you just said i played it horribly.
regardless, i was just frustrated that the focus was more on my play than villian's because it was villian's play that inspired my post to begin with. my bad. i could have addressed those issues without being rude.
i like this poker theory stuff and find it interesting. i'm playing 50nl because i'm working on some different aspects of my game that are easier to try out at a lower limit.
btw, i didn't know villian was such a huge fish until AFTER the hand. i made the best read i could at the time. obv after this hand i would only 4b villian for value, but tons of players at this limit fold to 4b, and with his high 3b tendency and my super tight image it was a great spot for a 4b bluff.
i see a lot of other ssnl regs make similar mistakes, even cr members, so honestly, my only point from the beginning was to just help my comrades think more about their decisions.
Jan 18, 10 17:02:48
This hand is giving me a headache, i think you both played it horribly. I dont like your preflop 4 bet, but then vilian calls super light(for a 4b pot), but then you chk raise all in when he has put over 1/2 his stack in already?
Then you decide to check raise all in???! Even if he has Aj or J10, he is calling you with decent equity....And I dont mean to hate, but your blog title is so wrong, especially when you are the one showing common mistakes as well.
Jan 18, 10 17:29:23
hate on bazuko. i guess this is what i get for actually trying to help people. it's easy to criticize my play when i turned out to be wrong, but villian's line was so unorthodox you can't really fault me that much for doing what i did. i was glad the hand got shown down only because i've seen people flat 4bets with ax or small pocket pairs and then spaz out postflop.
do i advocate 4 betting qjo pre? no. do i advocate crai with middle pair on kq2 flops in 4 bet pots? no. i'm not saying that my play was optimal in most situations. in fact, i'm quite certain this is the only time ive done something like this in my last 200k hands or so. i'm not trying to say this is the way you should play. if you actually read my post, its not advocating my play, but it's critiquing villian's.
you can hate all you want, but there are tons of regs that make very similar mistakes as villian in this hand. that's what my entire post is about. not saying how great my play was (that's just the only thing anyone has wanted to talk about). just trying to get people to think more about why they are doing what. that's all.
Jan 18, 10 17:40:01
cool, i think what bazuko, james, and i are saying is that you might be making the same mistakes you're trying to help other ppl with. were trying to help you.
Jan 18, 10 18:14:16
Honestly I think the title of this blog and the way you responded to the first few critiques of this hand welcomed the harsh comments but I will throw my two cents in.
First of all I think the biggest problem with this hand is that you are running 8/6!!! How is that possible? Irregardless of how many hands this is over, you are missing out on way way way too many spots. Secondly, you are making far too many assumptions about your opponent without any evidence to support them. We don't know if this player is even paying enough attention to know that you are running 8/6. Secondly, it is rather absurd that you know what betting 17 into 22 means from this player. He clearly is not thinking on a high level, so this could mean everything from him having air, to AA, to something merged. Third, as a number of players have talked about, CRing flop is a very poor play, cbetting or check calling are better plays, (and with better reads even check folding can be better).
Finally, and I think all 50nl players can use this critique, 4betting OOP with bluffs is a big mistake at 50nl. At some point even good players will think about the money in terms of actual money as opposed to big blinds. It is just really tough to get a player to fold to a 4bet when you are only raising 7 actual dollars. Obviously the higher up you climb, smaller 4bets become more and more profitable, but at 50nl it is really a mistake to think you have a lot of fold equity in this spot.
Cliff Notes:
1) dont play 8/6
2) Each player is different, find specific reads or dont use them
3) CR on flop is bad
4) Dont 4bet bluff small at 50nl
So sorry to say this, but I think your cumalative mistakes in this hand are greater than your opponents.
Jan 18, 10 18:38:35
heels, like i said, i don't know if ive ever done this in a 4 bet pot before. it just seemed like the right play at the right time. obv villian showed up with a better hand so i was wrong. im not making this mistake with any frequency.
thanks grant. i know you've always been one of my biggest fans. totally agree that i brought on the hate.
1) as far as playing 8/6, have no idea what was happening on that table to be honest. for the session i ended up playing 23/16, so obv not reflective of my overall play at all.
2) i didn't have a ton of information on this player, so i made the best read i could at the time. as you know, sometimes you have to make difficult decisions based on limited information. it wasn't a strong read, but since villian took an unorthodox line i just decided to go with my hand. i'm quite certain you've gone with a marginal read before because that's all you had.
3) saying CR on flop is bad is being results oriented esp when villian shows up with the hand he does.
4) totally disagree about 4b bluffing at 50nl. i've played over 10k hands at 50nl in the past week and a several hundred thousand at 100nl and 200nl, and 4b bluffing at 50nl is by far the most profitable. light 3 bettors at these stakes aren't used to 4b bluffs because it is rarely done, especially when compared to higher limits. i 4b bluff small with much higher frequency at this limit just because it's so much more successful.
to say my cumulative mistakes are greater than my opponents' in this case is just ridiculous. i don't know what i've ever done to you, but whatever it was i'm sorry. all i've ever done to you is give you praise for what you have contributed to the cr community, thanked you for how you have helped me personally, and wish you luck in whatever endeavor you were undertaking.
Jan 18, 10 18:56:17
Saying the c/raise is bad is nothing to do with being results oriented, it is based on the same logic you are using to criticise people for making aggressive plays with no reasoning behind them. C/raising simply folds out all his air and you never get called by worse. If you really think he has nothing when he bets like this why don't you c/call, c/call, or if you think he never bluffs the turn after you c/call flop then c/call, c/fold. It doesn't matter if you are getting 10000000:1 on the turn, if he is never bluffing you should still fold.
I also agree with balbomb that there is nothing wrong with just c/folding here with certain reads, but of all the options c/raising is probably going to be the worst and is guilty of exactly the mindless aggression you are accusing villain of.
I'm not trying to be harsh or anything but I think the example you've given to demonstrate a point is not a very good one because your play is at least as mistaken and perhaps more guilty of the things you are saying not to do.
Jan 18, 10 19:15:30
In no way was what I said personal and you have always been a nice guy to me, this was simply my analysis of the hand. I was just seconding my agreement with goheels (shittiest CR name ever screw UNC go Duke) about his anaylsis and others as to why a CR is bad on flop, its not results oriented. Just don't take it personally, give it a day or two and comeback to people's critiques and see if you can agree with them more, if not then thats cool too, just because the majority of people say a play is right in poker does not make it so.
Jan 18, 10 21:42:36
TBH I dislike runing your own stats on the table and assuming villains are paying attention to them at all. Fwiw 4betting OOP you always want to make it 2.7x+ imo.
I think you raise a valid point about struggling players (myself included) not paying attention enough to why they are doing what they are doing. To many people are focused on volume rather than improving and making the most +EV decision. Unfortunately I think this HH may be an example of two players doing so and not just one.
No disrespect intended.
Jan 18, 10 22:51:11
thanks guys for the input. obviously this was not a good example to make the point i was trying to make. it's all good.
i'm just glad i sucked out making a donkey play vs a fish to be honest.
Jan 18, 10 23:11:52
Tilttt, if I wanted to hate, I wouldnt even bother posting a comment, but I was just trying to analyze the hand from a neutral perspective, maybe my use of exclamantion points, made me come accross as if i was hating on you.
Just because we have different views on the way you play a hand, does not mean I dont like you, or Im hating on you...If I offended you in any way, I apologize....xoxo :)
Jan 19, 10 10:42:13
with all the back an forth...this did turn out to be a great post. thanks!
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if you ever want some inspiration to play or get better, just watch nanonoko play a while on stars. it's cool because even if you don't play there you can pull up all his tables and click on hand histories and watch all hands at the table in a replayer if you miss one. the guy is really good and seems like a freak of nature. plays 20+ tables at 3/6 to 5/10 and just crushes. he also plays like marathon sessions. ud think he'd play robotic under such conditions, but his play is very loose, aggro and unpredictable. it's a true learning experience even if you cant see his hole cards.
as for poker, i've noticed that the games have gotten much more difficult in the past year. i've seen a lot of regs who used to play 1/2 playing .5/1 or even lower. lots of guys who have done really well at 2/4 are playing 1/2 and lower. even a lot of the fish or bad regs are getting better. of course there are still tons of bad players out there, but in general they seem to be making fewer mistakes, and there are more regs who understand basic concepts like 3betting ip, or firing multiple barrels on good boards, etc.
i attribute a lot of this to all of the resources that are available to improve. you have training sites, coaching, books, forums, etc. i read ljjones recent blog and i feel for him. he has lost a ton of confidence and has been running poorly for an extended period of time. in his last entry he discourages ssnl players from pursuing poker as a primary source of income. this is concerning for me as someone who is pursuing this goal. i'm not too worried about it as i have a great job and will always be able to play part time if that's where it goes, but i would eventually like to squeeze into the midstakes games and just make a comfortable living and being my own boss. i'm not totally discouraged, but i have to admit that the state of the games is getting worse. i believe there is hope for significant improvement if we can pass some favorable legislation in the coming months, but if we can't and it stays the same or gets worse for us players i can definitely see it becoming increasingly difficult to make it as a poker player.
i am finally having a decent month. been playing lower recently experimenting with some things which is working out really well. it's also kind of fun just absolutely dominating at a lower limit too. you feel like you're printing money and the players seem completely transparent. it's a great remedy for anyone that's struggling with their game. the confidence you gain will help you as much as anything. you will remember that you do know something about this game and how important confidence can be in your overall success.
Jan 16, 10 16:18:28
i search nano some times and that guy always has huge stacks on each table. very impressive for the number of tables he is playing.
Jan 17, 10 13:17:19
Thought i'd do a quick search on Nano and he's playing the Sunday Warm Up just now. I notice he's got a Stars "spade" by his name and upon looking through the tourney player list i see a few others have too, namely pro's Gavin Griffin, Noah Boeken (Exclusive), Johnny Lodden and a few others. If this signifies Nanonoko as a Pokerstars pro, who is he? By the way just watching for a while and looking through the list makes me want to give that tourney or the Sunday Million a go. Id prob get eaten up but i might learn something while i was at it....
Jan 17, 10 13:17:24
Thought i'd do a quick search on Nano and he's playing the Sunday Warm Up just now. I notice he's got a Stars "spade" by his name and upon looking through the tourney player list i see a few others have too, namely pro's Gavin Griffin, Noah Boeken (Exclusive), Johnny Lodden and a few others. If this signifies Nanonoko as a Pokerstars pro, who is he? By the way just watching for a while and looking through the list makes me want to give that tourney or the Sunday Million a go. Id prob get eaten up but i might learn something while i was at it....
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